I'm mad about self care: Why self care is a myth

Last week on Coffee Time with Masterminds, Tom King, Executive Director of Massachusetts Children's Alliance joined us to talk about the idea of self-care.

• We explored how the term self-care overemphasizes individual responsibility
• We explored alternative ways of thinking about, talking about, and planning for well-being in the context of challenging work
• And we talked about how even self-care can perpetuate inequality.

This was a very popular topic and we have received requests to come back to it in future shows. We promise we will! There is a lot to talk about here. If you're not already watching the show live on Friday mornings, you can do so here or here. Transcript Rebecca Tuttle: Welcome, everyone. Thanks for joining us this morning. Welcome back to Coffee Time with Mastermind. This year has been upending, upsetting and quite traumatic. Self care has come up a lot on this show, especially in the last couple of weeks. So today we're going to dive deep into the idea of self care. What exactly does it mean? And whether or not you can yoga yourself out of a state of crisis. As I say that, that sounds a little silly, right? You're not going to want to miss this show today. We have a lot to cover, and a special guest. So we invite you to grab a cup of coffee, join the conversation for the next 30 minutes as we discuss topics that are urgent to mission-based organization. Rebecca Tuttle: Let's start with introductions. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? Post your comments in the chat and join the conversation and the comments as we go throughout today's conversation. My name is Rebecca Tuttle. I'm the Founder and Creator of Grant Write Now and Grant Writing for Good. We help schools, nonprofits, organizations and businesses find, write and secure grant funding, and we teach you how to do it. I'm joined today by my co-host Cynthia Rojas. Welcome, Cynthia, how are you doing this morning? Cynthia Rojas: I'm good. How are you, Rebecca? Rebecca Tuttle: I'm great. Cynthia Rojas: I am Cynthia Rojas, and I'm the Founder and Principal of To Your Growth, which is a consulting firm that specializes in change management, organizational development and leadership development. Rebecca Tuttle: Excellent. And let's bring on our other co-host, Pieta Blakely of Blakely Consulting. Pieta Blakely: Good morning, and happy Juneteenth. How are you doing today? Rebecca Tuttle: Happy Juneteenth. That's right. I'm doing well. Thank you. Pieta Blakely: I am Pieta Blakely. I'm the Founder and Principal of Blakely Consulting. I help mission-based organizations measure and maximize their impact. Rebecca Tuttle: And she does a great job at it too. Pieta, a couple of weeks ago, we were talking on one of our shows and you said you were mad about self-care. Pieta Blakely: That's right. Rebecca Tuttle: So we said, what better title for today's show? Mad about self-care. Tell us what you meant by that. Pieta Blakely: [inaudible 00:02:25] we are talking to some people who are doing really, really hard work and they are physically and mentally and emotionally exhausted. There's this mantra of self-care like, "Well, you should just meditate more. You should just take more warm baths. It's personalizing what I think is a systemic problem, and implying that if people continue to be traumatized and exhausted and unable to function, that it's a personal failure, they just didn't do enough self-care. Rebecca Tuttle: Or yoga. Pieta Blakely: Or yoga. Rebecca Tuttle: Yeah, it's interesting. I can't wait to introduce our next guest. I'm going to bring Tom King into our stream. Hello, Tom. Tom King: Good morning, everyone. Thanks for having me. Cynthia Rojas: Hi, Tom. Rebecca Tuttle: How are you? Tom King: I'm great. Rebecca Tuttle: So we invited Tom to join us today. He started his career as a child forensic interviewer, and is now the executive director of Massachusetts Children's Alliance. He holds a certificate from the Institute of Nonprofit Management and Leadership at Boston [inaudible 00:03:32] School of Management. In addition to a Master of Social Work degree from Smith College for Social Work. He's both a human service worker and an organizational leader. Tom has a lot of experience working with, thinking about and managing self care. Welcome, Tom. Tom King: Thank you so much for having me, and for burning out just to put it out there. Rebecca Tuttle: I know. If we weren't all burnt out, we wouldn't have a topic today. It's the least we can do, right? Pieta Blakely: That's right. Offer ourselves up as examples. Tom King: Exactly. Rebecca Tuttle: Now, Tom, I understand you worked most of your career in pretty stressful settings, both in human services, which I myself, I can attest to that. That's a pretty difficult setting. And now as an organizational leader, and you've been open about your own experience with burnout. So how does burnout influence the work that you do now? Tom King: Absolutely. I am definitely a case example of how that has shifted my career. And my goal as a leader of an organization is to be very open and aware of what the staff are going through. I think the key to this is to never feel you do have the answer, but to be open and to see how, particularly now, nevermind the content of the work that we're doing, but now trying to do that work in these really unusual times. Tom King: So it's being mindful for me. Again, the role that folks have to attend to daily, coupled with what is going on now. Not only just COVID, but the national headlines. And I think that for me, I wish I had a magical toolbox, but I don't, but there are certainly some things that we look to, to hopefully help out and make sure that what I consider the best resources over the organization, the staff, are as healthy as they can be mentally, physically. And if something is going awry, what can I do, if anything, to help out? Rebecca Tuttle: I know Pieta has a question for you, but I just want to pick up on something that you said really quick, because it's going to leave my mind. Pieta Blakely: Go ahead. Rebecca Tuttle: Now, Tom, I like how you said toolbox and not crystal ball, so you're [crosstalk 00:05:59] the tools to use to bring resolve rather than predict the future and then chase whatever is to come. That's great. I'm sorry, Pieta. Pieta Blakely: One of the things that came up when Tom and I were talking yesterday is vicarious trauma. Can you talk a little bit about what that means and how it's relevant? Tom King: Absolutely. So pretty much in a nutshell, those of us who have worked with people who've experienced trauma, whether that is personal trauma, societal trauma, and being that person that is supposed to bring some assistance and help or relief and how that in turn affects the person as the helper. So I, for example, really did get super paranoid because I worked with children who had been victims of crime. It also can lead to just absolute fatigue, kind of shutting down yourself in almost a mirroring the symptoms of trauma, even though you weren't the recipient of the violence that they experienced. Pieta Blakely: And so what do you say to people who are working under incredibly stressful situations? One of the things that I'm really conscious of, is in many situations, we say that the people who are closest to the work are the best qualified to do the work. And so we have people who are themselves may be personally affected by these issues who are now doing the work in the community. And I am concerned about compounding disadvantage in that way, and that by personalizing the responsibility we deny or erase how that trauma is being compounded. Tom King: Well. And again, I don't have the solution, but I can absolutely agree with you. And I feel that some of the ways that I survived and was able to do something different are options that other people don't have. So I can say, I have the luxury of changing careers and doing something different for a little while. And I acknowledge full-heartedly that there are people that just can't do that. Tom King: And I do think, what we were talking about yesterday, people, particularly people of color, are putting these human service jobs. They seek them out. You are a hero, and heroes don't get tired. Heroes, you have to be able to move beyond this. And I think that's a huge problem. I do embrace, and you can absolutely disagree with me, I think there are some things that work for people without the expectations. Tom King: Like, "Well, you have problems, go do yoga, go do meditation." I think there are places for that, but they cannot be branded as, "Oh, well you missed a yoga class, so now, sorry, you're struggling," but again, "It's back on you to fix your own problem." And I do think you are not surprisingly spot on and that very issue. It's, I'm sure that there are some options there for you, but you also have to be in a position that you can take advantage of them and not be chastised if you're not able to participate fully. Pieta Blakely: Not just being in a position to take advantage of them, but also fitting it in with the constraints of the other demands on your time and money. To me, it's really problematic if somebody is traumatized at work and then they go to therapy after work and pay their own copay. Right? I feel like you taxed that individual twice. To me, that's not okay. Pieta Blakely: I mean, I would go a step farther to say that that person then has the diagnosis that will follow them wherever they go, and blame that as much as you want. Right? You can explain that to the hell. It is still a diagnosis that will stay with you for the rest of your life and your mental health record. Cynthia Rojas: Where do you think we went wrong, Pieta? Because the truth is, when we were all young and we had these aspirations ... I was developing my professional awareness in the late 80s and women were being part of corporate America and wearing a briefcase was cool and heels and working- Pieta Blakely: Shoulder pads. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, working after hours or long hours was cool. Where did we go wrong that now we spend so much money in creating balance. And what you're saying is that, that's even a myth. So where do you think we went wrong as a society? Pieta Blakely: I think this is how our culture deals with things. Americans tend to be way far on the end of personal responsibility, and pretty light on the side of employer responsibility. I also think it's just what the most privileged people do becomes the standard for everybody. So when low-income people worked in fields, it was fashionable to be very pale. Then when wealthy people went on tropical vacations, it was fashionable to be tanned, right? So if wealthy people have a lot of time for yoga and meditation, that becomes what everybody is supposed to do. Pieta Blakely: And I'm not saying that yoga and meditation are a bad idea. In some cases, they are culturally not appropriate for an individual. And they are expensive pursuits in terms of the space required, the time you're to spend, the fancy pants you're going to wear. It's just, it's not accessible to every single person. Then we- Rebecca Tuttle: Well, I also think [crosstalk 00:12:03]- Pieta Blakely: Okay, go ahead Rebecca. Rebecca Tuttle: Go ahead. Sorry, Pieta. I also think too that one of the reasons why we "require" so much self care is because we were just, boom, boom, boom, go, go, go, go, go. Then this pandemic hit. And everyone's like, "Wait a second. My life is not a slow paced life." And it would be interesting to see, well, a lot of the places that provided that self-care for us shut down. So do we really need all of the self-care- Pieta Blakely: The accessories. Rebecca Tuttle: I don't want to be superficial, but accessory self care that we were accessing, given that we haven't had access to it over the last, however many, what did you just say? This is our 18th week now, Cynthia, in this? [crosstalk 00:12:58] Pieta Blakely: Generally, it requires things like a room to yourself, but not everybody has that. Tom King: That's right. Rebecca Tuttle: So I wonder if we weren't at such a fast pace, would there be such a need for that self-care in certain aspects, but it doesn't necessarily change the degree of the work that we all feel compelled to access something that alleviates that stress and strain. I'm curious, why are we continuing to bring solutions to problems that don't decrease? It seems like there's no relief for it. So [crosstalk 00:13:35]- Pieta Blakely: And I say, there's no relief for it because people can't solve their way one at a time out of this problem. The real solution is just to say, some of these jobs are not doable, or it's not acceptable that this is a 40 hour a week job. This is actually 30 hours and 10 hours of subsidized self care, right? And maybe organizations just need to rewrite their budgets accordingly. Tom King: Well, I think it's also compounded if you are, and this may not be the most politically correct thing to say, if you are competent at your job, then you are the recipient of more work. Then you're really in a bind where you are expected to maintain that other standard. And because you have, for whatever reason, whether you have an ability to put a shield up and you're able to do it, you then become the person that is the problem solver. And I think that's another layer to the problem in human services. So you get compounded for being good, that responsibility weighs on you even more. Tom King: And so I think what you just said, Pieta, really struck me. I have an example of a person who switched into a different arena from our work, and she didn't last very long because she said, "I am now responsible for four programs because they liked what I did managerially." So she left. So again, how do you monitor or gauge a problem that is so multilayered? It's even beyond that person, it's kind of built into the organization. Tom King: So when you talk about the budget, it's as if it's built into the culture of nonprofits, and I think we've all been there, particularly if your nonprofit is seeing a budget challenge. Like, "Oh, if everyone could just chip in a little bit more, we're going to get through this." So you tap the people who are able to do their job well, and then they get punished with that. And they're supposed to be grateful for more work because it contributes to their superhuman qualities, but no more pay and no time off, and "Oh, you can deal with it if you're able to go to yoga." Tom King: And I would also dare say, with yoga comes a whole lot of language you're supposed to know. [crosstalk 00:16:05] Right? So you are then faced with, "Oh, I better learn these terminology or else I'm not going to fit in there either." [crosstalk 00:16:13] In my little world, I experienced that and it's, "Okay, I'm not even good enough for this self care because I don't know what the hell they're talking about, frankly." Tom King: Yeah. Right. I mean, I stress myself out by trying to meditate and then not being good at it, so [crosstalk 00:16:28]. Interesting point, like the people who are holding themselves together in some ways subsidizing the fact that other people can't hold themselves together? And when I say can't, I don't mean that they're bad people. I just mean they're not maintaining the ability to function at work at that level because they have other responsibilities and other things that they're taking care of. Tom King: And I am kind of, I'm always thinking about the ways mission-based organizations directly or inadvertently or silently ask the workers to subsidize the work, not just to do your job, but in little tiny ways. To use your cell phone while you're doing your job, to drive your car while you're doing your job. Things that I think some corporate organizations wouldn't ask of people, justifying it by saying, "This is really, really, really important work and we can't leave it undone." That's true, but it's also a way of kind of abusing people with the importance of the work that they've elected to do, and I'm really disturbed by that. Cynthia Rojas: We're getting a lot of- Rebecca Tuttle: I know, I was going to say [crosstalk 00:17:49] comments. Cynthia Rojas: Rebecca, do you want to talk about what's happening on the common section, which is exciting. Rebecca Tuttle: I would like to. Yeah. So Ellen, welcome, Ellen. Nice to have you here. Ellen says, "We've made self-care complicated." We sure have. And we have made ... even more complicated after today. "Go to class, buy fancy clothes," but for Ellen, "It's going for a walk outside." I think that's a really important point. Ellen brings up is that self-care doesn't have to be something you purchase. You could just go outside, go to the beach. Rebecca Tuttle: My favorite piece of self-care for me, I'm a Rhode Islander through and through, ocean state all the way, is putting my toes in the sand and taking that deep breath of ocean air. Give me that, and I am good to go. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:18:40] not everybody has access to those resources. [crosstalk 00:18:42] Rebecca Tuttle: Not everyone does. Nope. Not everyone does. [crosstalk 00:18:47] Not everyone does. You're right. And I think that's why self care has to be what you believe it is for yourself. And to Tom's point earlier about putting all of that demand on nonprofit employees to kind of figure that piece out, I think there's a lot of social pressure for self care as well that is even outside of this dialogue that, who puts that social pressure there? Rebecca Tuttle: So we also have Madeline Ann joining us. Welcome, Madeline. Madeline says she agrees with Pieta that self care is a class issue and it's not accessible to all. Absolutely. Carisa. Welcome, Carisa. Carisa Cunningham says, "We have to change systems." Absolutely. Absolutely. Cynthia Rojas: Can I say something, Rebecca? Rebecca Tuttle: Please do. Cynthia Rojas: I think language is really important, and Pieta's point about this self care seems to imply that I, myself am responsible to care for me because I've been burdened by these structural systems. This term in the literature called structural care where organizations can implement things, well, within their infrastructure to enable staff to have a balance between that really difficult work, especially if you're working within an industry that can cause vicarious trauma, and also making sure that you are taking time to replenish your mental energy. That is structural care. I have not heard that term as much as I've heard self-care. Tom King: [crosstalk 00:20:36] structural care a lot. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:20:38] Think about it differently. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:41] Tom King: And structural care can really involve your [inaudible 00:20:43]. It can involve others. So for me, what resonated, clearly because I just jumped all over it, was it takes the onus off one person and it becomes a responsibility of a lot more. It becomes a responsibility for the governance of the agency. It becomes responsible for those who are doing policies and procedures. So I love that, Cynthia. I really like it that a lot. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. I mean, we get into ... the flip side of self care, I've also heard is what happens is sometimes we are so exhausted that we use it as a way to give us permission to miss important deadlines or to not do something that we actually should be doing. So an example I've heard is that we'll take a nap right before a deadline because we're so exhausted. And that the excuse we give ourselves is, yes, well this is self-care because I've been doing this for 18 hours and I'm exhausted, but now you've missed a deadline. So, it's so complicated, interwoven in our heads that it can actually work against us as well. Pieta Blakely: And you created more stress on everybody around you, by missing that deadline. Cynthia Rojas: Oh, God. God yeah. Pieta Blakely: So by failing to address the fact that the assignment was impossible. [crosstalk 00:22:08] individual is exhibiting signs of trauma and fear by needing to suddenly go to sleep while they're doing the work, we're magnifying the issue, right? Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Rebecca Tuttle: We have a lot of people joining this conversation. I want to just welcome everyone. We probably won't get through all the comments. They're awesome. Go back and read them, please. Just wanted to welcome Howard, and welcome, Frank. Frank says hello. Hi Frank. I know Frank. It's great to have you here. Carissa, welcome. Ellen. We have some other guests. May. May's back with us. She has some nice comments. So this is a great dialogue. A lot of conversation. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:22:49] Focus on funding structural care. I think that's the next frontier. Foundations are starting to understand we can't only fund the work itself. We have to fund other things, like capacity building. And that would be a great thing to focus on. Like, how do we take care of the people who do the work so that they can continue to do the work? Tom King: Back to what you were saying earlier, Pieta, just the budget of it almost as a badge of honor if you're using your own phone or, "I brought this from home," or, "I'm going to contribute more," and that's reinforced. To really untangle that and say, "No, that cannot be the way we structure our organization. It cannot be the way we treat those people who are working for us, with us." I really like that point a great deal, because it is. It's the way I think some folks survive, and it's to Cynthia's point as well about a nap. It is almost buying into that. You are now this held on high martyr, this'll get you through. And that, actually more damage can happen. Not only to that person, but to the organization. Pieta Blakely: And it's another way that reinforces inequality. Tom King: That's right. Pieta Blakely: So an individual who earns more money or has fewer financial responsibilities might be more able to use their cell phone to do their job. Or who, for some reason, has a car might be more able to use their car for work. Should we reward that? And then by extension sort of penalize the person who is supporting more family members or has other responsibilities at home? I don't think so. It becomes a real equity issue. Tom King: Absolutely. Rebecca Tuttle: I'm going to show this comment because it's keeping with the theme of our conversation, Tom, it may cover you up though. So I want [crosstalk 00:24:46]. Okay. So Frank says, "I agree with Carisa. What is needed is a bigger picture culture change. Our society is so heavily predicated on productivity that it allows for nothing else." I think that's exactly what we're talking about here. "Our leadership needs to make a balance and self-care are part of organizational culture." Absolutely. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. And again, change the name. Because as long as we keep using self care, then it changes the responsibility. Also, I do want to say this. There are times where we engage in activity to create more mental space or to reflect, right, which is part of our growth process. That is different then having to take yoga because we have such a stressful job. Cynthia Rojas: Our doctor told us we were about to go on high blood pressure medication and we need to learn how to breathe. Right? So, because I know one of the comments, I happen to know Myra, she has a very tough job managing crisis in New York city schools. And she deals with a lot of death. Well, she engages in a lot of activities that replenish her energy so that she can continue their hard work. She's one of the first responders when something happens. And she may call it self care, but actually those are exercises for her. She's doing it as a way to create balance in her life. I would imagine. Myra, you can comment on that. Rebecca Tuttle: So, Cynthia, do we need to rethink the model in and of itself? What would you call it? Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, I would call it structural care. I didn't invent that term. I read it. [crosstalk 00:26:45] I can't trademark it, but I think we could do a show where we envision an organization that has implemented structural care, and what does that look like? And then we should talk to some funders and see, can organizations do this? Can they use money, operating funds to implement structural care? That'd be a great show. Pieta Blakely: Oh, I'm thinking for a moment about professional athletes. I mean, they warm up and they exercise and they cool down and that's all considered part of their job. Could we all consider the debrief or the hour of meditation at the end of the day part of our job? Is that a cool down? Tom King: It was funny. Because I was even thinking, do you let folks take time out of the day to do whatever that is? And again, I know we fallen on yoga and meditation, but [crosstalk 00:27:41]- Pieta Blakely: We're just picking on yoga because I don't particularly like yoga. Tom King: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:27:42] Right, right, right. No, and I just, I think it's ... And one of the things that I would, just to be a little bit of a, just the challenger to be careful not to follow what I've seen in some of the private where you have a basketball court and you have ... that's to overly produce those folks. Right? So I think [crosstalk 00:28:11]- Pieta Blakely: Yeah, that's acceptable on campus. Because that's really interesting to think [crosstalk 00:28:14], it's not about just putting the infrastructure there. It's about being thoughtful. Once again, we have to separate the message from the medium. Right, right. Cynthia Rojas: Oh, Ellen just said something very interesting. This is so true. We don't even let people take an hour for lunch. That is so true. I was talking to someone who is here and he comes from a different country, and I was asking him about his work and has he made friends? And, "How's it going?" Just on a social aspect, because he's new to America. And he said, "Well, I have not made friends." I said, "Why not?" Because he's nice and he says, "Because we don't have lunch." I said, "You don't get a lunch hour?" He goes, "No, we get a half an hour, but everybody eats at their desk." He is shocked by this. Rebecca Tuttle: Which, by the way, has the most bacteria anywhere in your whole office. [crosstalk 00:29:16] Pieta Blakely: Renee's point. Renee says, "Wellness works. The term wellness works because by definition it is broad. And some 500 companies are bringing on wellness activities to the job site." They sure do. Like, can we envision a life where not-for-profit workers all go downstairs and have personal training sessions and massage in the middle of their workday? Rebecca Tuttle: This is interesting that we're talking about this, because as I'm listening to the conversation, I'm thinking about, you might get some pushback of, first, who's going to pay for that, right? Especially in fund development. I mean, we're looking for the resources [crosstalk 00:29:57] wherever we are able, and secondly, organizations might push back and say, "We do that. It's called team building. It's when we have retreats, it's all of that stuff." Rebecca Tuttle: So I think now that we are social distancing retreats might go a little by to the wayside or look a little bit differently. Perhaps the conversation can be, how can we reframe our retreats system, our team building offerings and our culture of our organization to incorporate some of this ... I'm about to say, self-care, Cynthia. What did you call it? Cynthia Rojas: Structural care. Rebecca Tuttle: Structural care into that, so that some of that need can be met. Pieta Blakely: To respond a little bit to the point about retreats, to say, it's not one size fits all. I can't say because we all went to the park and played basketball, now everybody is calm. Cynthia Rojas: I would be out of breath. Tom King: It goes to that tool box. It goes to, well, that quick fix. And I think that's what we have to be really, really cautious of. You may have some tools that will help, but I saw ... Pieta, I don't mean to call you out. You rolled your eyes, and I did too, when you hear retreat because that's often someone else's agenda so that they can feel good, and they have the checkbox that they did a retreat. That retreat has probably led to extended daycare for some of the staff, because it means a trip out somewhere else where they're like, "Okay, now relax, enjoy this. We're giving you this perk." Tom King: And so I would say, I'm not saying that there's not a place for it, but ... and again, I'm sure some of my staff were on this call. It's do it right, and listen to the staff. What is it that you would want out of this time? And I think, particularly in human services, particularly during this unknown, we're looking, we all do, I do, for that fix, that certainty ... and being very, very careful that certainty isn't actually perpetuating the very problem you're trying to solve. And I hope have enough insight that, that deliverable, to use jargon may actually be dangerous. So I would put that out too. Tom King: And again, a well-done retreat, I'm all for it. I've been to more where it's pushing an agenda in the sunlight under a nice setting. and they're basically telling you what the next year is going to look like, and your job is going to be harder. So I'm not cynical. Pieta Blakely: We sound a little bit cynical, Tom, but yeah. Rebecca Tuttle: Well, and you know what else? When we go on these retreats, how much are you supposed to bring of yourself as a personal self versus work self, and allowing people to take the position where I'm not going to blur that line. I show up here as my professional self, I meet some friends here at work, sure, but I'm not going to bring all of my personal self to a professional retreat. That comes up a lot, especially when we get into the questions of, how does this make you feel? Really, because I've participated in so many of these and I felt like I don't really feel comfortable answering that with my work colleagues. Pieta Blakely: I'm like the classic introvert. I'm cringing just as you're retelling these. Horrible. Rebecca Tuttle: Yeah, and it happened all the time. [crosstalk 00:33:16] Tom King: Forced this all of a sudden, well, we're in a different place, so share. Then there is no talk about vicarious trauma or even traumatizing. Say someone actually does share something very personal, and then quickly you find out, either verbally or non-verbally. Oops, that was too much. We really don't want to know so much about you. That then contributes. I have to say, I am not a big fan of those, "Well, we have a facilitator who's now going to share something really personal." Tom King: I think those, I've only experienced them go badly. I've never really experienced something going really, really well when all of a sudden you are asked to share something about yourself. And if someone's doing it appropriately or really doing it genuinely rather, they're probably going to say, "I just, I have three kids who are yanking on me as I was trying to get out the door. And that contributes significantly to my ability to work here." People don't want to hear that. They don't want to hear that. Pieta Blakely: Yeah, we could do an entire show, icebreakers that Pieta hates. [crosstalk 00:34:21] organizational leaders with. What can you do when you're an executive director? Let's leave people with, A, an action step that they could take. Tom King: I would say. And again, I hope these don't sound like cliches. Listen, listen, and when you think you have the answer, listen more. Ask, ask, ask, and resist feeling like ... and I just experienced this and I was delightfully reminded by the folks that work at Mass Children's Alliance, let's not check the box here. Be careful that you're not also grabbing for that quick fix, because more likely than not, you're going to be causing ... Tom King: So I guess, again, not to sound cliche, be comfortable with not knowing, listen, listen, listen to the talented people that you've brought into your organization, because I really do feel like, not that they're going to have all the answers, they're going to inform how you should lead and manage. Even if that leads you to more uncertainty, to be comfortable in that, and to listen, really, really listen would be my advice. Rebecca Tuttle: Cynthia, what's your big takeaway? Cynthia Rojas: There are little things that leaders may or may not understand how important they are. Good coffee. I've seen senior leaders fight over taking coffee out of the budget because it's too expensive, but good coffee goes a long way. Feeding people every once in a while is also a really good thing. I worked at an organization where the staff lounge was cut in half and the microwave was removed. I spent years reminding everyone of the day the microwave was removed. Rebecca Tuttle: So they wouldn't cook? Cynthia Rojas: Right, so they wouldn't eat up their lunch. Rebecca Tuttle: Oh, my goodness. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. It was just ... and so it's just crazy. These little things matter, right? So don't talk to me about, "I can't afford to bring a yoga ..." poor yoga. We like yoga, by the way. But I can't afford to bring a Zoomba teacher to [crosstalk 00:36:50] organization, but you know what? We could afford really good coffee. So let's invest in that, and let's invest in a non-caffeinated drink to take care of the people who don't drink caffeine. Pieta Blakely: Let's re-examine our working hours, and say, "Hey, maybe people who do this work should have three weeks of vacation instead of two. Maybe this isn't a 40 hour a week job. Maybe it's a 35. Maybe we give people permission to take time out of the day and model it ourselves by walking out of the office and saying, 'Oh, I have to go to my chanting group now,' or, 'I have to go to my therapy appointment now.'" Show everybody that that's an acceptable way to conduct yourself during the workday. Cynthia Rojas: I love that. Rebecca Tuttle: Wow. We are 37 minutes into this. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:37:45] I think May said, "We need a sequel to this show," I agree. Cynthia Rojas: Yes. Pieta Blakely: Yeah. Rebecca Tuttle: Pieta, why don't you close us out with your big takeaway? Pieta Blakely: My big takeaway was the idea of structural care. We have to take the self out of self care and think more globally about what does it mean to take care of ourselves and each other. And that we also have to contemplate this through the lenses of various issues like equity and access. Rebecca Tuttle: Tom, we can't thank you enough. I hope you enjoyed your visit with us today. Pieta Blakely: Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? This was uplifting for me. Thank you so very, very much. And I hope I'm asked back. Rebecca Tuttle: Absolutely. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:38:38] Or I will be in the chatbox listening to this wisdom. I can't thank you enough. I benefited from this immensely and I look forward to our paths crossing again. Thank you very, very much. Rebecca Tuttle: Thank you. And thank you everyone who joined the conversation today, don't forget to grab your cup of coffee and tune in next Friday at 10:30 for Coffee Time with Masterminds. Bye, everyone. Pieta Blakely: Bye. Tom King: Bye. Thank you.