The last few years have seen more and more elaborate forms of visual communication. But more complex is not always better. Last week on Coffee Time, Chris Lysy joined us to talk about keeping the human element in our communications. Chris is a freelance designer and evaluator who supports all sorts of digital projects and programs. He is also a cartoonist. We talked about:
  • Whether we should hand draw our charts
  • Keeping typos in our writing
  • And how drawings can support valuable conversations
And he drew some cartoons just for us!
You can find Chris's new book on Amazon. Join the conversation live on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/DataInformedPrograms/ Transcript Pieta Blakely: Good morning. The last few years have given us more and more elaborate and technical forms of communication, but sometimes more complicated isn't better. Today, we're talking about keeping the human in our communications and we're joined by Chris Lysy. Chris is a freelance designer and evaluator who just supports all kinds of digital projects and programs, and he is also a cartoonist. Welcome to Coffee Time with Masterminds. This is a 30 minute conversation with the leaders of mission-based organizations about issues that are urgent to us right now. I am Pieta Blakely and I am the founder and principal of Blakely Consulting. I help mission-based organizations measure and maximize their impact. I'm joined today by Cynthia. Good morning, Cynthia. Cynthia Rojas: Hi, Pieta. How are you? Pieta Blakely: Good. Cynthia Rojas: I am Cynthia Rojas and I am the Principal and Founder of To Your Growth. Welcome everybody. Pieta Blakely: Good morning. Cynthia Rojas: Good morning. Pieta Blakely: And Rebecca is with us. Rebecca Tuttle: Good morning, everyone. My name's Rebecca Tuttle. I'm the Founder and Principal of Grant Write Now and Grant Writing for Good. Cynthia Rojas: Nice. Hi. Pieta Blakely: And if you are joining us this morning, please tell us in the comments where you're joining us from. Rebecca Tuttle: And Chris Lysy joins us this morning. Chris recently published a book of cartoons about evaluation, and he's here to talk with us today about communication, both high tech and low tech. Welcome Chris, how are you today? Welcome to Coffee Time. Chris Lysy: Good. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is fun. Cynthia Rojas: This is so interesting, Chris. I can't wait for this conversation. Rebecca Tuttle: You recently published a book of cartoons about program evaluation. How did you get started drawing cartoons? Chris Lysy: Starting drawing cartoons probably started when I was a kid. I was doodling constantly, but I didn't really think of it, or do it until I got an iPad really. And then I was playing around with cartoons on the plane, on the way to an evaluation conference, back in 2011. And I just started drawing cartoons and people liked them. So I kept drawing cartoons, and that's the story. Rebecca Tuttle: That's one way to do it. Wow, so you haven't been really drawing that long. Your drawings are excellent, but that's really interesting that you just picked it up and then went with it, and it's your passion, and what you're doing. That's great. Chris Lysy: It's been super fun. It's a fun way to talk about something that people don't usually have fun talking about. That's what I like about it. And in addition to me, I get to give other fun ways to talk about things that they don't want to talk about necessarily. Rebecca Tuttle: Ooh, we're excited for today's show then. Cynthia Rojas: Chris, I'm curious, what do you say when people ask you, "What do you do for a living?" Chris Lysy: It depends on the person. I mean, really it's usually, I just say I'm a consultant. Sometimes, a cartoonist. The cartoonist gets a conversation going, so if I want a conversation, I'd say a cartoonist. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, I'm sure. Chris Lysy: If not, if you really don't want a conversation, you say you're an evaluator and they're like, "Oh, I don't know what that means." Cynthia Rojas: Then nobody wants to talk to you. Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:03:42]. Pieta Blakely: And why do you think that your cartoons gained so much traction so quickly? Chris Lysy: I think there are lots of things that people feel. There are lots of things that people see. There are messages hidden in the work of evaluators, of theorists, of practitioners of all sorts. And there are these like little inside jokes and these tough ethical dilemmas and challenges that evaluators face on a daily basis. So all I've really done over time is just take some of those things that people have written about, talked about, things that I've noticed, that friends have noticed, and put some funny characters around them, and then put them up as a cartoon and share them on Twitter. The science behind it, it's not about finding something new to say, or saying... It's just taking the realities of what can be a tricky job and putting them out in a way that people can actually digest them and start talking about them. Cynthia Rojas: So we named the show unconventional communication, right now flawed is better because you have a philosophy that perfection is not what we should be aiming toward. And so is that because of the pandemic and we need to give ourselves a break, or did you always feel that way? Chris Lysy: So I earned a degree in sociology. And at one point, I was trying to become a psychologist. And the reason I like sociology is because it's all about the context. It's less about the individual person, it's about the stuff around. Cynthia Rojas: Right. Chris Lysy: And right now, when you look around at people, and you'll do web design, or other design things, or program design, or evaluation, and you just see how overwhelmed people are. So I forget the question, Cynthia. Pieta Blakely: Do you feel like, right now in particular, if we shouldn't be aiming for perfection? Chris Lysy: Yes. Cynthia Rojas: Right. Chris Lysy: Right now in particular, perfection is not the aim. When the web started coming around, everybody was trying to figure out how to use it. How do we connect with each other? And the first-generation web stuff, it's all about taking the stuff we do offline and bringing it online, but it only takes a part of it. So like forums, it's not like a real forum, but it's different. Now it has a thread of that. But then as times go, social media has evolved, web media has evolved, our practices evolved. And now we're all online. We're all on video. And we're trying to figure out how to be people again, even across this digital medium. And so one of the things I found through my cartoons is to cartoon for people. So I used to use type in my cartoons. But then over time, I'd just started scribble drawing, and I have typos, and I've weird lines, and characters don't always have the right number of fingers. But it doesn't really matter because all that stuff just shows that there's a person behind the cartoon. It doesn't have to be perfect and it connects better that way. And that's a part, it's the evidence. It connects better. Pieta Blakely: That's such an interesting point that people are... My husband and I were just talking this morning about the rise in home crafts because people are at home more because of COVID and everybody is taking up baking, and knitting, and trying to make things with their hands. There's this craving for things that are not mass produced and not perfect. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, I have taken on coloring and I'm really into it. I don't know how much I've invested in markers. Well, they're awfully expensive. They are expensive. Pieta Blakely: Yeah. Cynthia Rojas: I need another hobby, a new hobby. Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:07:58] color pastels, you can get so many more. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Pieta Blakely: Chris, you have also been consulting in helping people take their events online and do training and events online. So what are the important issues for people to keep in mind when they're communicating either one-on-one, or to multiple people virtually like we are now? Chris Lysy: I think people have been looking at digital and thinking, "Okay, how do I put on a perfect webinar?" Or, "How do I reach out to these people on Facebook or on Twitter?" And thinking about all these different facets of these platforms and how they can actually be on these platforms and reach other people. But the essence of an event, the essence of program, the technology is only a very small part of it. And the technology piece doesn't really matter all that much. Usually there's something that they're trying to accomplish there. And taking these events and bringing them online, you have to figure out what the essence of the event is supposed to be. Are people trying to connect with other people, or are you creating a networking event, or are you creating a series of presentations? Conferences, for instance, we all think, oh, well you have these conferences. So you have these keynotes, and you have these sessions, and then you have networking. Well, if we're going to go online, the knee-jerk thing is to go, "Okay, we'll just have the plenaries, and we'll put them online, and we'll create videos, plenaries." But that's not why people go to the conference in the first place. They go to connect with each other. So by putting the plenaries online, it's never going to feel anywhere close to the live event. So what can you do to get people to connect with each other, is that breakout rooms, is that unconventional presentations and discussions. So it's trying to think about all that kind of stuff when doing any kind of thing online, whether it's a blog post, or a community practice, or a digital event. Cynthia Rojas: That's awesome. One of the best online events I attended, there were two of them, but one of them I can choose a room to go into. So the rooms were themed. And so I could just hang out in a room. And I thought that was really cool. I've not seen that since. And then I attended a book party event on Zoom and it was so well orchestrated. It had an MC through the whole entire event. It had different events. And I have to tell you, it looked so seamless. I'm getting some kickback, I'm sorry. It felt seamless. It felt live if... I mean it was live, but I didn't feel like I was in front of Zoom. It was an extraordinary experience. Haven't seen it since though. So I think your approach about... You tend to start with what's the human experience we want to have. Those two events literally did that. I think other events are, again, thinking about the perfection, the technology, the replication of doing something live and putting it on Zoom versus what's this experience going to be like. Yeah. Chris Lysy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's great. Rebecca Tuttle: I have a question. Chris Lysy: Sure. Rebecca Tuttle: How can we find you on Twitter? Chris Lysy: Twitter. Rebecca Tuttle: Can I put your twitter handle in the comments. Chris Lysy: Sure. It's @clysy. So it's @clysy. So my last name, first letter of first name, then last name. Rebecca Tuttle: Clysy? Chris Lysy: Yeah, that's right. Five letters. Rebecca Tuttle: Thank you. Cynthia Rojas: And so you put your cartoons up on Twitter. You show them in Twitter. Are you on Instagram. Chris Lysy: [crosstalk 00:12:06] I've tried it, it hasn't worked for me yet. Cynthia Rojas: I'll take that as a no. Chris Lysy: That's a no. Yeah. I'll probably- Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:12:21]. Chris Lysy: [crosstalk 00:12:21]. Rebecca Tuttle: You said that you don't need to... Oh, I just have one quick question. Chris Lysy: Yeah. Rebecca Tuttle: So you said, if you don't... We're talking about how we shouldn't be expecting perfection during COVID, during pandemic, or really ever because there's no such thing. And you had really mentioned that you created these cartoons to get people going and engaged in conversation. What is it that you hope people will get out of these conversations? Because I think this is an awesome opportunity to share with our audience and others what you do, because I think that the humor in the cartoon or the aha moment in the cartoon depiction is a great way to get people to talk about things that make them uncomfortable. And right now what we need more of are uncomfortable conversations. Chris Lysy: I agree. I think one of the mistakes in thinking about data visualization, or cartoon, or any of this stuff as simplifying things is yeah, in a way, but really it's about taking complex ideas, conversations and making them approachable so that we can actually engage with them. There was somebody I was reading early on in my career, Hugh McLeod, who draws these cartoons, or drew these cartoons at gapingvoid. And he said that you need to create social objects, that if you want a discussion, you need to have an object out there that people can engage around. So this show right here is social object. It creates a space where people can come and have harder conversations, or cartoons can operate in the same way. You can create a cartoon and it creates this little orbit around it where people have discussions, conversations, and then that cartoon can expand beyond that. So the cartoon can then go into presentations. It can then go into meeting rooms. It can go into books, and textbooks, and other things as a trigger for a conversation. And so that's the idea, it's not about how do you simplify something so that people can understand it. It's how do you adapt something so that people can approach it? And sometimes that's keeping it uncomfortable, keeping it confusing, or leaving all the subtleties and all the craziness or ridiculousness in the thing in the first place. It doesn't have to be simple, just has to be approachable. Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:14:54] approachable- Pieta Blakely: I'm also a databiz nerd, but one of the things that you've talked about is there's more, and more, and more technology. And it's really tempting to be in love with Tableau and power BI and the capacity of those platforms. But you've said that's not what it's about, the fancier or more technology driven isn't necessarily what matters. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Chris Lysy: Sure, so this comes from years of experience in contract research with federal agencies, department of education, and department of health that you have these big contracts in these big organizations, and they're trying to do this large evaluation. And so they're like, "Well, we need to get these better tools so that we can do the thing." But then they try to look at a tool like the tool itself is going to make the visualization better. Tableau and Power BI are interactive visualization tools. What they let you do is they let you take a mass amount of data and break it down so it's approachable. But what organizations often try to do is they take little bits of data, stuff that you could just put together, a little chart, and send it out and it would be just as effective And then they try to put it into Tableau and have Tableau do that same thing that you could probably just do it with a pencil on a piece of paper. And that's a challenge. It's not that the tools aren't useful, it's that most of the time, the way in which we're using the tools doesn't really make sense. If you don't have the data for Tableau, you don't need Tableau. And if you can draw it on a piece of paper, just draw it on a piece of paper. It's so much easier, and quicker, and more efficient. And then you can do more evaluation, analysis, and dissemination. So that's usually my feeling. Pieta Blakely: I think that's such an important point, like the technology is not going to do anything that the data couldn't do. And there, you need to be able to analyze the data yourself to use those tools effectively. So the limitation is your data and your own capacity to engage with it, the technology. Yeah. Cynthia Rojas: So Pieta has pulled up, or found an example, and so I'm dying to see. I'm dying to see. Pieta Blakely: This is a cartoon that Chris made special for us. And it talks about some of the important issues that we have talked about in leading mission-based organizations right now, and the difference between leading and managing. Cynthia Rojas: Wow. I love that. Pieta Blakely: I think it's so perfect. Cynthia Rojas: I love that. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. [crosstalk 00:17:57]. I can- Chris Lysy: Oh, go ahead, Cynthia. Cynthia Rojas: No. I can see how this... You were just talking about an object and that that can become the focus of conversation. I could totally see how this can engage people in having a conversation versus reading a one pager about leadership and management. Pieta Blakely: Yeah. So we will share that on social media and see how it starts a conversation. Rebecca Tuttle: Why do you write freshspectrum there? Chris Lysy: Yep, that's just been my website for a long time. It was two words that I threw together and the dot com was available when I... And that became my website, even though I've kind of a lisp so it's hard to say for me. So even though I've tried to go away from it, it's on so many of my cartoons, I can't. So I have freshspectrum that I can barely say, and that's my website. Pieta Blakely: But it's incredibly well-known and everybody associates it with you, so you're stuck with it. Cynthia Rojas: So you're stuck with it. Yeah. Chris Lysy: Yeah, I'm stuck. Pieta Blakely: And funnily enough, that's how our show got named. It's roughly the same process. We were masterminds and we were having coffee and that's how we named our show and now we're stuck with this. Rebecca Tuttle: I can't believe it was much more complicated than that. Myra says, "Yes, please share. She'd love to get that with her teams." Myra works in the school system in New York city, right Cynthia? Cynthia Rojas: Yes. Yes, she does. She does. Rebecca Tuttle: Okay. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Chris Lysy: Can I- Cynthia Rojas: Myra, I think this would be a great conversation tool for your team in a way that's unconventional. So yeah. I'm sorry, Chris, you were going to say? Chris Lysy: Just that, sometimes too is, some of the cartoons that I've shared, that one's kind of an example of that there's usually a point. So the point was something that Pieta was talking about how there's a difference between leadership and management and the idea behind between the two. And usually when people look at a cartoon, they'll think about like, "Oh, well, that's what a leader should be." Or, they'll look at it and go, "Well, that management's important because if all those people try to climb that hill together, somebody is going to fall down. You need that person at the bottom." And there are a number of evaluation cartoons that I've done that have that duality too where, depending on what you feel and think, you're going to come at that cartoon in a very different way. And you're like, "Well, that manager's important." And what's interesting, until you have that conversation, you don't know how people are reading it. So even something as simple as a cartoon creates this thing that everybody just assumes somebody is reading it in one way, but it's not always like that. Cynthia Rojas: Wow. That's very- Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:21:01] Rebecca Tuttle: Myra wants to know what do we do with a team member who's sometimes un-coachable? And how do you get through that frustration that you feel as a leader or manager when you're trying to coach people who just are resisting? Cynthia Rojas: You give them a cartoon and you have a conversation. I- Chris Lysy: Not coachable... Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, I think that that's a hard question because the non-coachable can be related to a couple of things. And so instead of starting with wanting to coach someone, starting with that person, and this may not be just one conversation, but what's driving that person's behavior. And it doesn't have to be so straightforward. You could have just on your one-on-one, just regular conversation, and start to get a sense and build some trust on what's going on with this individual. And then we lead into coaching. But if you start with coaching, there's a core assumption built into that, that there's something wrong with that person. And so maybe that's off-putting to that person. So start just natural conversation as you would any of your teammates and grow into a coaching situation. That would be my advice, but it's not fun, Myra. We all feel that pain as leaders. Rebecca Tuttle: Have you ever had any controversy over your cartoons? Chris Lysy: Hmm. I think not as much as I would have thought I would have early on. I think there are these topics that people feel like, "Oh, you can't really talk about that." Or, "You can't really say that." In truth, you can a lot of the time. You can sell all sorts of random stuff. And with cartoons, what's interesting is that you can just say ridiculous things with cartoons that you could never write, that you can never speak. And it doesn't really throw people off. They're like, "Ah, it's a cartoon." You can have a person and he's like, "You're an idiot." And they're like, "Oh, ha ha ha, cartoon." So not really. I have had a number of people who shared stories with me and they're like, "Can you please turn these into cartoons?" And the stories are all ethical dilemmas, or other things. And I'm like, "Yeah, sure." But don't mention my name. I don't want my name getting out as part of this. And so I've had those kind of things, but not really any true controversy over my cartoons. Cynthia Rojas: Huh, so people- Pieta Blakely: [crosstalk 00:23:57] yeah that you're saying the medium itself makes the message more palatable. Chris Lysy: Yeah. Pieta Blakely: And then that makes me think the opposite, maybe the reason we're all so in love with fancy data visualizations is the medium itself makes the data look more serious and more precise. Chris Lysy: That's [crosstalk 00:24:17]. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Chris Lysy: There's a data visualization person that I've been sharing a lot about recently and I'm blanking on her name, but I will find it in a second. Cynthia Rojas: Oh, yeah. Chris Lysy: But her point that she made... She draws pictures and she draws a lot of infographics by hand. And the reason she draws them by hand and she illustrates them, and she's in the Guardian and a bunch of these other places, is that there's this faulty sense of precision in data visualization that you take away the person and then all of a sudden this chart looks like something that's not just a bunch of messy data that somebody pulled together. That if you're going to create and share it, just make it messy, so at least people know that there's a human behind it. And that there's this whole human experience behind collecting that data and sharing that data. I'm going to find her name. Cynthia Rojas: I love that. Yeah, find her name. I found one but she's- Chris Lysy: Mona Chalabi. Cynthia Rojas: Okay. Pieta Blakely: Can you spell that? Chris Lysy: Sure. It's Mona, M-O-N-A and Chalabi is C-H-A-L-A-B-I. Pieta Blakely: Nice. Rebecca Tuttle: I'll put that in the chat. And she also is a cartoonist? Chris Lysy: She is an artist and a data visualization person, probably more data journalist, I would call it. Rebecca Tuttle: Okay. I'm just putting that in the chat if anyone wants to look her up. Cynthia Rojas: That's great. Rebecca Tuttle: Thank you. Cynthia Rojas: So Chris... I think I forgot my line of... So if somebody wanted you... So someone can hire you to do an illustration of, let's say they're doing a training and it's a hard conversation. A lot of nonprofit organizations are doing trainings and workshops around racial inequity. They can reach out to you and work with you on building something that embraces conversation? Is that how people... Is that a service that you provide? Chris Lysy: Theoretically, it's something that I could provide. But I found out years ago, I have had some cartoon projects where I've created cartoons for university programs, for nonprofit programs, marketing, just things to go around a certain campaign, or conversations, or conference. But most of the time, I do far better as a consultant if I shift my consulting work around putting on digital events, or facilitating communities of practice, or doing large-scale program evaluation. The cartooning has always been secondary, that's why it's taken me like 10 years to put out a book because it's something I do. When I try to make it into a business, it becomes less fun. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Chris Lysy: But I just enjoy it, that's why I'm here. People have been buying the book. They've been enjoying it. If anybody wants to buy it, please do. But there are free cartoons. But if you don't feel like spending any money, you just want to sort through my site, you can find all the same cartoons that are in my book, on my website for free. It's not like I'm hiding anything. And then you can put them in all your presentations. The book just makes it easier and it gives you something to hold in your hands. Cynthia Rojas: That's so cool. Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:27:56]. Cynthia Rojas: I keep thinking about all the time I spent reading about color theory, how people read data, I can go on and on because I would present data, or I will present findings to non-data people all the time. This is the only audience, actually the primary audience, that I have primarily presented to. And it's always been challenging. And I'm thinking about all these years and how I think people would have appreciated a cartoon or two. Pieta Blakely: I think it would help a lot. So before we close, I want to make sure everybody knows about a couple of opportunities. One, Chris's book is available on Amazon and his illustrations are also on his website and on Pinterest. Chris Lysy: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Pieta Blakely: And two, Chris has recently released a course about getting started as a consultant. Cynthia Rojas: Wow. Pieta Blakely: And information about that course is on freshspectrum.com. Chris Lysy: That's right. Cynthia Rojas: That's awesome. Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:29:02]. Cynthia Rojas: We get a lot of questions about consulting. Pieta Blakely: Yeah. Cynthia Rojas: I'm sorry, Rebecca. Rebecca Tuttle: I'm putting that in the chat, so if anyone wants to go to Chris's website, they'll have that. Chris Lysy: [crosstalk 00:29:11]. Rebecca Tuttle: [crosstalk 00:29:12] sharing today. Thank you, Chris. Cynthia Rojas: And there's no N, but yes. Rebecca Tuttle: Oh, did I mistype it. See, I don't have my glasses on. This is me... Anyway. Pieta Blakely: Like it under Chris's face. Chris Lysy: Yeah, right there. Rebecca Tuttle: Okay. Pieta Blakely: Chris, do you want to leave anybody with any final thoughts? Like what should people be doing right now in the land of leadership through Zoom meetings and trying to run programs without face-to-face communication? What's the number one thing people should have online right now? Chris Lysy: Remember that people are people, but that whether or not you're somewhere else, or you're across video, or whatever, just connect with the people in whatever way you can connect with the people. Think about them and their challenges and less about you and then take breaths, and breathe deep because this is hard on everybody. Cynthia Rojas: I love that, think about them and their challenges. Yeah. Great. Okay. Pieta Blakely: I think my big takeaway is, we've talked about adapting and innovating a lot on this show, and I think Chris has me thinking differently about what it means to adapt things into online spaces. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah. Pieta Blakely: And maybe the things that seemed a priority in face-to-face communications are less important. Cynthia Rojas: Yeah, I think, well, I mean my big takeaway from here is really have fun. We are in this for a long time and we started stressed out because we didn't know what to expect. And then these deadlines kept getting pushed out. And now we know that we're in this for a much longer haul. And the truth of the matter is, it is time to have fun with what we have. And you do this, Chris, by doing illustrations, but also I love your focus on humans and always putting the human first. So thank you for that. Thank you. Rebecca, what's your takeaway? Rebecca Tuttle: I believe in the power of visualization as we need something right now to connect us, to get the conversation going, something that's non-threatening but can also encourage and invoke ideas from a host of different people. And I think that what you're doing, Chris, is a great avenue to do that. And we interpret what we see from our own perspective. So you could have a cartoon or an illustration out there and you could evoke a different emotion in almost everyone who sees it, and a different translation. I think that's pretty powerful. Chris Lysy: Certainly a lot of fun. Cynthia Rojas: You are having fun. Well, this was fun. Pieta Blakely: Thank you so much for [crosstalk 00:32:17]. Chris Lysy: And thank you all for having me. It's been fun. Pieta Blakely: It's been a really fun and interesting show. And have a great weekend, everybody. Cynthia Rojas: Bye. Rebecca Tuttle: Bye. Thank you.